Age of accountability?
Thursday, 27 February, 2003
Still reading The Case for Faith and have stumbled across some interesting bits to do with the age of accountability. Lee Strobel interviews Normal Geisler on the subject of “God Isn't Worthy of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children” who says,
According to the Bible, every child who dies before the age of accountability goes to heaven to spend eternity in the presence of God ... Now, if they had continued to live in that horrible society [the society of the Amalekites], past the age of accountability, they undoubtedly would have become corrupted and thereby lost forever ... Isaiah 7:16 talks about an age before a child is morally accountable, before the child “knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.” King David spoke of going to be with his son who died at birth. Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these,” which indicates they will go to heaven. There's a considerable amount of other scriptural support for this position as well.
Later on, when Strobel is interviewing J.P. Moreland on the subject of “A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell”, Moreland says similar things:
... in the Bible children are universally viewed as figures of speech for salvation. In all of the texts where children are used in regard to the afterlife, they're used as pictures of being saved. There's no case where children are ever used as figures of damnation ... Here's a good example. The child that King David conceived in an adulterous relationship with Bathsheba died, and David says in Second Samuel 12:23: “I will go to him but he will not return to me.” David was expressing the truth that his child will be in heaven and that he would join him someday. So that is another piece of evidence that children will not be in hell.
This doctrine does not sit neatly with me. I simply don't think it's true but then I was wrong about angels and I might be wrong about this. It's not that I want to believe in a sadistic God who tortures kids. It's just I think the whole premise is flawed. The age of accountability thing is based on the assumption that children have not sinned. Now, I know I've only been doing Sunday School for about five weeks now and I don't have that much experience with kids, but I do know that they sin just as much as you or me and their age doesn't seem to make a difference (ie. younger children do not sin less than older children). Someone told me once that you never have to teach a child how to misbehave; he or she seems to instinctively know how. A guy in my old Bible Study group illustrated this perfectly by saying to his daughter, “Don't touch the bookcase!” After he said this, she tried to get as close as possible to the bookcase without touching it. To me, that perfectly illustrates the concept of sin and its pervasiveness throughout all mankind.
So what about this “age of accountability” thing? Why do such smart and intelligent people like Norman Geisler and J.P. Moreland believe it? Does the Bible actually talk about some sort of grace period where children, even though they are sinners, still get to go to heaven if they die before a certain age? Does this issue have anything to do with the words of Paul who said,
If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. (1 Corinthians 7:13-14)
Does having holy children mean that they get to go to heaven? What about babies who die in the womb before they are born? And yet, as someone pointed out to me, the Holy Spirit can be present in a child before it is born (see Luke 1:39-45 but perhaps the presence of the Holy Spirit was in Elizabeth, not in John).
At the end of the day, I realise I am totally unqualified to determine who gets into heaven and who does not. All I know is that God will judge us according to what we have done and how we have responded to Jesus:
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2: 6-11)
I just don't see how children can be excluded from that.
Current:
seen: Moon 15/10/2009
read: The Incredibles 11/10/2009
seen: She's the Man 05/10/2009
read: I Kill Giants (Joe Kelly and J. M. Ken Niimura) 04/10/2009
read: Astro City The Dark Ages Book 1: Brothers and Other Strangers (Kurt Busiek, Brent Anderson and Alex Ross) 04/10/2009
seen: Children of Men 02/10/2009
seen: Metric (The Metro) 30/09/2009
seen: 500 Days of Summer 25/09/2009
seen: The September Issue 18/09/2009
seen: Gilmore Girls: Season 1 17/09/2009
read: Flight (Volume 1) (edited by Kazu Kibuishi) 16/09/2009
seen: Ponyo 11/09/2009
read: Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? (Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert) 05/09/2009
heard: Aimee Mann (Enmore Theatre) 04/09/2009
heard: Ben Folds Solo (Opera House) 31/08/2009
read: Phonogram: Rue Britannia (Kieron Gillen and Jamie McKelvie) 26/08/2009
seen: Northanger Abbey 20/08/2009
read: The Princess Diaries (Meg Cabot) 18/08/2009
seen: The Phantom of the Opera 17/08/2009
seen: Who Framed Roger Rabbit? 10/08/2009
seen: District 9 10/08/2009
read: Shortcomings (Adrian Tomine) 02/08/2009
read: AIR Volume 1: Letters from Lost Countries (Willow Wilson and M.K. Perker) 28/07/2009
seen: Persepolis 25/07/2009
seen: Ghost Town 25/07/2009
heard: Gutter Twins (Seymour Centre) 23/07/2009
seen: Coco Avant Chanel 20/07/2009
seen: Gutenberg! The Musical (Seymour Centre) 16/07/2009
seen: So You Think You Can Dance? Australia Live Tour (Sydney Entertainment Centre) 11/07/2009
seen: Every Little Step 07/07/2009
seen: Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen 03/07/2009
seen: Synecdoche, New York 30/06/2009
seen: Charlie's Angels 27/06/2009
seen: Penelope 26/06/2009
seen: Coraline 10/06/2009
seen: The Sky Crawlers 08/06/2009
seen: The Bourne Ultimatum 07/06/2009
seen: The Bourne Supremacy 07/06/2009
seen: The Bourne Identity 06/06/2009
seen: Stick it 05/06/2009
Comment:
Hi Karen,
Congratulations on Astrid’s birth.
A quick tip that we learned when we became parents and my wife was breastfeeding (don’t you love tips from strangers 
):
Instead of writing down which side to feed on next, stick a hairclip, or peg on your bra strap on the side they will next feed from. Then swap it over when you feed.
Then you never have to remember, and you don’t need to worry about writing it down.
That is indeed an epic post! Brings back a lot of memories of Puff’s first weeks.
As far as how long until Astrid hits 16kgs, you can read it off the graphs in her blue book. I would guess somewhere between 2 and 3 years old.
Hi Karen - yes! But we’re finished at Moore now and living back in Tassie so it’s unlikely. I enjoy still enjoy reading though, hope you don’t mind!
@Miriam - I had a very fast labour too (lets just say it was quite a bit quicker than 4 hours) and I almost felt embarrassed telling people! I’d never imagined I’d be one of ‘those’ women. Still, friends who’ve had longer labours followed by shorter labours assured me it’s the same amount of pain, just squeezed into a shorter time span so I try not to feel too bad 
Congratulations Karen & Ben. What a beautiful daughter. Thanks for sharing your birth story - sounds almost identical to mine, except my labour was only 4 hours! My midwife also told me not to share it at mothers group as people would be jealous hehe
Enjoy this wonderful time getting to know Astrid.
Miriam
Thanks everyone!
Wow, Bron, I still can’t believe I haven’t met you yet! Thanks for continuing to read this blog!
Little Rachel, now I’m intrigued!!!
It’s so funny reading your labour experience. It’s so funny she came out when you were standing up and the midwife had to catch her. Wow! I will remember to go through your blog more carefully when my time comes around. It’s very informative.
Congratulations to you all and many blessings. Astrid is a little sweetie.
Congratulations Karen and Ben. A gorgeous girl with a gorgeous name. Praise God!
Thanks for sharing your story.
Congrats, Karen! She looks wonderful, so alert and adorable! Glad that everything went so smoothly (comparatively).
Well, one of your details clears up a conversation Jess and Anna and Liza and I had! I’ll tell you later.
I think you and Ben did amazingly well, and that the staff were right: you were pretty tough! I will have to give all those exercises a go when that time comes.
Yay for Astrid! Such a beautiful name for a precious daughter.
Hello! Thanks for sharing. It sounded tough and bewildering! Can I come and visit sometime? Tonight or tomorrow night? I’m away for the next 4 days after that. Love George
Congratulations! Astrid Winter is a gorgeous name. So beautiful. Thank you for sharing your story. It’s interesting to hear from other women. Now I’m expecting my second I’m starting to think about all that again. Eeeeek!
RPA is very busy, apparently they’re at 3 times capacity for the area. When we were there last year the night my daughter was born there were something like 8 births in 45 minutes. As soon as I’d had a shower we had to be out of there! I remember being rather surprised at having to walk up to the post-natal ward. “you want me to what?!”
I don’t think it’s exclusively the change of temperature: young babies like to be cuddled up (or wrapped in a blanket or similar) as they adjust to being on the outside after so long being wrapped up on the inside.
Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense that babies would cry if you put them in a cold bed! I totally never thought of that!
I love your posts, they are so fascinating! :D
Oh Jess! There are so many good things about Sydney
Looks like really nice adventures! I don’t really think of Sydney as a place to explore.. hmm.. you have opened my mind up to The Staycation.
I get depressed at the adrenaline crash also because then I have time to think about how shitty everything is lol.
Hmm...food for thought indeed. V. interesting, thank you for posting
lol! Karen, you’re so frank and I love it. “the non-constipating kind” of iron pills. hahaha.
i know how hard it is to not tell people the sex of your baby. I am tempted to tell strangers or acquaintances what you’re having because, as Ben reasoned with the waiter, I’ll either never see them again or it’s not like their going to tell anyone of consequence.
Thanks Kathleen! Glad you’re finding them interesting!
These posts are fascinating, Karen, and I’m happy/sad for you.
Hey Little! One of the things that astounds me is that people all over the world give birth everyday in different circumstances, and they seem to get through it. Maybe all the bells and whistles of the western world are simply that—bells and whistles, and things we do to make ourselves feel better about such a painful and momentous occurrence. I’m sure Mongolia has its own ways of looking after their expectant mums!
Great post, Karen.
As I said to you last Friday: the Toturo thing is gorgeous!
Thanks for posting about the changing relationships between friends. I’ve been struggling to come to terms with my best friend’s relationship with her boyfriend and the loss I feel. It’s been 18mths now, but I guess it’s taking longer for me to deal with because he’s not something we talk about and I don’t often see them together. However, it’s still known. It’s good to know I’m not alone or going crazy or whatever.
Also, thanks for the updates on Peanut. Can’t wait to meet him/her!
I think that your child will one day be thankful that they can read about what their mother was thinking. They won’t have to wonder if you’ve forgotten anything or just telling the good things! I think the positives are more believable when accompanied by the negatives, that’s just more realistic.
The PGP sounds really hard! Also not something that people talk about, so is it hard to get understanding from people when you need to go a little slower? Though perhaps they just expect that of pregnant women… gah, there are so many steps at MM! :(
I worry about the money stuff too… though I guess in Mongolia maybe they won’t do all those medical things so I won’t have to pay for them! 
Keep blogging! You know I’m fascinated. ;p
Thanks Miriam! That’s good to know!
Hi Karen,
Thanks for the long update. It sounds like you are experiencing very common emotions (high and low) of first-time expectant mothers.
In answer to your question about breastfeeding in 5mins - that’s pretty common. In the first few weeks as both you and baby are learning how to feed (it takes a while to get the hang of it)feeding takes a little while (about an hour for me and Alex). This was actually a blessing for me as it meant I could sit and rest for that period of time, 5 or 6 times a day! Lovely, especially as it was such a tiring time of my life, with all the adjusting that comes with the birth of a child.
The milk flow can be quite fast to begin with(often too fast for baby!) and it means they take in too much and then need to be burped, which all takes time. After awhile though your breasts will adjust and regulate themselves as they work out how much milk is needed. THey are amazing the way they work. They actually feel quite soft and empty after a few weeks and lots of new mums worry that they don’t hvae enough milk, but it is very normal, and just means your body has regulated the amount of milk it makes.
Check out the Australian Breastfeeding Association webpage - it is full of excellent information. I would recommend joining the association - you receive a magazine every 2 months, which is filled with wonderful articles. I found it very helpful (and still do after 3 years of feeding). A great bit of reading to have in your hands while sitting down to feed. You also receive an excellent book “Breastfeeding....naturally” which answers just about any question you may have about breastfeeding. I read it many many times!
Mim
Congratulations again - and it is very interesting to hear what happens!
@Sarah: Thanks for the tip RE Australian Breastfeeding Association! I never would have thought to look there. Ditto KMart: I was wondering if they did since Target don’t.
@Rae: Thanks for the tip! I’ll check it out.
@Little Rachel: Oh, I’ll definitely be up for visitors! I may not be very good company (brain-dead, etc.) but I’ll certainly appreciate visits!
@Rachel C: CONGRATS!!! So excited for you Yours sounds like a good philosophy. One day I shall have to blog about Outliers!
@CafeDave: Thanks for the tip!
@Elissa: Thanks for your kind words! It makes me happy that you and Dave were excited we were getting married! Thanks also for the prayers!
@Elsie: There are lots of other lovely things I could have said about you, but let’s not overload my readers, shall we? ;P
Aww...thanks for the lovely things you said about me! I enjoyed reading this post (as I do with all yours). xo
Congratulations to you both. I know you will be such wonderful parents. You sound WAY too sensible! 
(Sorry to read that there were some unusual comments made about your marriage! We thought it was exciting. We still have a lovely photo of you & Ben in our lovely box of special memories. (I was only 22 when married & I was 30 when we had Bonnie...)
Everyone is different! I nodded through your post. SO many people feel the curious need to share their “horror stories” which is just dreadful. I remember complaining to David who said - go find people who are positive & listen to them. Great advice, which I did. Those people still have a big place in my heart because their advice was honest & gentle.
Bless you & Ben & the little Peanut. We pray all goes smoothly over the coming weeks/months ahead. We sometimes forget what a precious little miracle life really is…
Another book from the dad’s perspective I found helpful was From here to paternity - it’s an Australian book, and was followed up with a blog.
Hi!
I’m so excited for you reading your blog about being pregnant I am 13 weeks pregnant with #2.
You’re so right about all the pessimism “advice” that you get. I got so mad about it but never found a good response. I’ve had such joy right from day one with E that I just don’t want to buy into the negativity (I’m sure kids pick up on it too!).
My philosophy was/is to be a relaxed mum and from that figure out what was best for my baby/child. Get advice when you’re not sure on things or want to know how other people approached things, read books (loved Outliers!) that aren’t all about parenting… but just enjoy.
In a sample size of one to date, I’ve had such a happy, chilled out son right from day one. People say all the craziest advice… glad you don’t do guilt
With love,
R
Thanks so much for writing more! I love hearing how you’re going and all your thoughts.
After watching my sister I agree with you that it seems the first six months are perhaps the hardest. She got quite lonely at home all day; weekends were all right because then her husband was around but it’s just as you say… one feed ends then the next begins! If you are accepting visitors during this period then I hope to use some RDOs to come have grown-up conversations!
The book review of The Second Nine Months makes me want to read it now!
Names: We have one girl name that we both like and no boy names that we agree on. But they are also top-secret… so if anyone else uses them we can’t accuse them of theft!
Yay Peanut, keep on growing, can’t wait to meet you!
Hello! Thanks for sharing
I loved reading your pregnancy update! I am glad to hear that things are all going pretty well, and I hope the rest of your 2nd trimester is as good.
I just wanted to add, that some other blokes decided that there was not much for the fathers-t0-be, and made a couple of DVD’s just for expectant dads. They are called ‘Being Dad’and i think they are available at big W. I have both though, if you would like me to send them!
Just wanted to wish you all the best!
Love
Rae
re: gluten: no idea!! I didn’t have to go on that diet - it was probably related to the test I didn’t do.
At the risk of adding to your list of advice:
Re: maternity bras - because I’m big I had to look hard for something nice in my size and discovered the Australian Breastfeeding Association. They have a massive range online and most are (dare I say it) sexy.
Re: maternity clothes - Kmart have a nice range of basic stuff.. I only found out towards the end of pregnancy and I would have liked to know earlier!
Re: Parenting classes - if you’re at RPA you can just ring the midwives section (they’ll put you through) and ask directly.
Congratulations again
Don’t laminate your ultrasound picture That is my advice.
Congratulations! This is so fantastic!
Thanks so much for sharing all of this… people swap engagement stories but rarely pregnancy stories! And it’s kind of similar don’t you think, all this excitement leading up to a big day!
So happy for you guys! Actually never been more excited for anyone except my sister! I think it’s because I think that you will both be amazing parents and love the idea that someone could grow up in your family.
Looking forward to many more posts on the topic.
Blinks:
"For a long time, I was waiting for my life to go back to normal," he said. "And then I realized, this is my life. So this is my normal."
How to make wontons.
Short-sleeved cardigan with lace edging.
Interesting answer.
"We pick out people who have the same kind of unhappiness we do. And we gravitate toward them and try to help them.
"Many of us are like this. Every time we try to help someone else and fail, it feels weird. It feels bad. We do not know exactly what is going on but it is upsetting.
"Until one day we realize that what we are doing is avoiding our own pain. We have learned to act as though it is not our pain that is at issue, but other people's."
Cleaning tips for all sorts of things. White vinegar is apparently wonderful!
The case for print.
"Laura Miller has argued eloquently in Salon about reading on the iPad as a serene experience, a sanctuary from the link-surfing that dominates so much of what we read online. And yet, I know what having an iPod has done to my attention span and ability to sit through an entire album, in order, by one artist ... and I'll be damned if I let the same thing happen to the way I read. Out of every argument I've heard in favor of e-readers ... my least favorite might be the central point of the thing: the fact that it allows you to choose from thousands of books at any given time. I simply don't want that kind of potential for distraction ...
"For me, to deny books their physical structure simply ignores far too much of what makes them enjoyable. The commitment they require, the way they force you into a state of simultaneous calm and focus—these are things I have yet to duplicate by any other means."
Something to do with leftover wool. Makes good toys!
The reasons behind the creation of the 4 am news slot. Interesting how lifestyle fuels these sorts of cultural changes.
Via Elsie. Consumer addiction used to distract or cover for emotional emptiness/loss/grief, etc.
A parenting philosophy to introduce media to children late and slowly.
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Comments
Thanks for that post - very stimulating stuff.
That was a well thought-out discussion, Karen, though a bit compact for the issue at hand
I’ve struggled with the same issue. I haven’t read Isaiah in its entirety, and thus haven’t heard of Isaiah 7:16. I agree that the doctrine of sinless children doesn’t sit well with what we know of human sinfulness: if there is a ‘grace period’ in which children are seen as sinless, how long does it last, and do we know when it cuts out? We both came to the same conclusion, which makes me feel a bit better, but is still somewhat unsatisfying…
Ah, well. Guess we’ll find out some day, eh?
Karen, I used to be in a church which stressed the ‘age of accountability.” However, they did not really speak much of a child not sinning. Obviously they do. Rather they spoke of a child being in a position to understand what Jesus did for them. While they loosely held to an age of 12, they also recognised that every child was different. They also used this to cover those with other problems who may not be able to make decisions for themselves. I still don’t find this altogether satisfactory, but it’s better than saying children don’t sin. I do know that my three boys all became christians at a fairly early age, and I believe they knew what they were doing then.
Shalom,
Jan
Thanks for your comments, everyone! Jan, you do raise an interesting point: when can a child decide for himself/herself to follow Jesus? It’s lovely to hear that your sons became Christians when very young. How young could a child be? Could a child decide to follow Jesus as a baby? As a toddler? At what age do they start understanding?
Interesting...Does the ‘age of accountability’ idea relate to the age at which it is possible for a child to both accept Jesus or reject Jesus? Or...is it possible to accept Jesus at any age, depending on the child’s own capabilities for understanding...but children are not responsible for their sin until a pre-determined age (eg. 12)? But then that would make it redundant or irrelevant at what age a child becomes a Christian if it’s before the age of 12 as they will go to heaven anyway...It’s all very problematic.
I’d always thought “For all have sinned” as far as children were concerned: anything else seemed to be a bit of a cop-out.
Obviously, this is pastorally insensitive, though. Not much comfort for the parents who have lost a child; not fitting with “let the children come to me”.
I’d really put this into the “look into it once you have children” basket; Good to see other people wrestling through an issue, though.
We had a girl at church give her testimony last night, and she understood that she was sinful (and became a Christian) at age 4!
Karen, and others,
Thanks for the interesting thoughts, but I’m not so sure I agree (although, I’m not fully convicted on either side..).
The ‘age of accountability’, I think, isn’t necessarily a numbered age (ie, 12) simply because we are all different people and God can and does reveal himself to people at different times in their lives.
Wouldn’t, rather, the ‘age’ be more in line with scripture (since scripture doesn’t mention a particular number, yet does refer consistently to where our heart is) if it were talking about a time when God was convicting us about our lives in relation to His goals for us?
Wouldn’t it better serve God, since he doesn’t wish that any should perish, to be sure that we understood the Law and our depravity within it, our need for Him, before he declared us unfit for the Kingdom? Everywhere in the New Testament, it is mentioned that the Law is designed for us to see the difference between the light and the darkness. It points us to Christ. But, without knowledge of the Law, how are we to be judged? Both Gentiles and Jews were saved prior to Christ’s ("it was reckoned to him[/her] as righteousness") birth. How? Because they served a God they knew of. They knew of God’s Law, even in the smallest sense, and knew that following His ways was the only Way. Otherwise, why does Christ say that we will be held accountable for what we know? If we do not know his Law, how would we be pointed to Christ himself and recognize our desperation?
Just a thought to extend the controversy.. heh..
Nate: But what about Romans 2:12-16?
Wouldn’t God judge children the same way as Gentiles who have not heard the gospel?
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