/karen/

February, 2003

Age of accountability?

Thursday, 27 February, 2003

Still reading The Case for Faith and have stumbled across some interesting bits to do with the age of accountability. Lee Strobel interviews Normal Geisler on the subject of “God Isn't Worthy of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children” who says,

According to the Bible, every child who dies before the age of accountability goes to heaven to spend eternity in the presence of God ... Now, if they had continued to live in that horrible society [the society of the Amalekites], past the age of accountability, they undoubtedly would have become corrupted and thereby lost forever ... Isaiah 7:16 talks about an age before a child is morally accountable, before the child “knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.” King David spoke of going to be with his son who died at birth. Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these,” which indicates they will go to heaven. There's a considerable amount of other scriptural support for this position as well.

Later on, when Strobel is interviewing J.P. Moreland on the subject of “A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell”, Moreland says similar things:

... in the Bible children are universally viewed as figures of speech for salvation. In all of the texts where children are used in regard to the afterlife, they're used as pictures of being saved. There's no case where children are ever used as figures of damnation ... Here's a good example. The child that King David conceived in an adulterous relationship with Bathsheba died, and David says in Second Samuel 12:23: “I will go to him but he will not return to me.” David was expressing the truth that his child will be in heaven and that he would join him someday. So that is another piece of evidence that children will not be in hell.

This doctrine does not sit neatly with me. I simply don't think it's true but then I was wrong about angels and I might be wrong about this. It's not that I want to believe in a sadistic God who tortures kids. It's just I think the whole premise is flawed. The age of accountability thing is based on the assumption that children have not sinned. Now, I know I've only been doing Sunday School for about five weeks now and I don't have that much experience with kids, but I do know that they sin just as much as you or me and their age doesn't seem to make a difference (ie. younger children do not sin less than older children). Someone told me once that you never have to teach a child how to misbehave; he or she seems to instinctively know how. A guy in my old Bible Study group illustrated this perfectly by saying to his daughter, “Don't touch the bookcase!” After he said this, she tried to get as close as possible to the bookcase without touching it. To me, that perfectly illustrates the concept of sin and its pervasiveness throughout all mankind.

So what about this “age of accountability” thing? Why do such smart and intelligent people like Norman Geisler and J.P. Moreland believe it? Does the Bible actually talk about some sort of grace period where children, even though they are sinners, still get to go to heaven if they die before a certain age? Does this issue have anything to do with the words of Paul who said,

If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. (1 Corinthians 7:13-14)

Does having holy children mean that they get to go to heaven? What about babies who die in the womb before they are born? And yet, as someone pointed out to me, the Holy Spirit can be present in a child before it is born (see Luke 1:39-45 but perhaps the presence of the Holy Spirit was in Elizabeth, not in John).

At the end of the day, I realise I am totally unqualified to determine who gets into heaven and who does not. All I know is that God will judge us according to what we have done and how we have responded to Jesus:

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2: 6-11)

I just don't see how children can be excluded from that.

/Karen/ had a thought at 1:08 PM | Comments (8)
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Comment:

cafedave said in Peanut (at around 38 weeks):

I don’t think it’s exclusively the change of temperature: young babies like to be cuddled up (or wrapped in a blanket or similar) as they adjust to being on the outside after so long being wrapped up on the inside.

Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense that babies would cry if you put them in a cold bed! I totally never thought of that!

I love your posts, they are so fascinating! :D

/Karen/ said in Mini break:

Oh Jess! There are so many good things about Sydney smile

apple said in Mini break:

Looks like really nice adventures! I don’t really think of Sydney as a place to explore.. hmm.. you have opened my mind up to The Staycation.

I get depressed at the adrenaline crash also because then I have time to think about how shitty everything is lol.

Hmm...food for thought indeed. V. interesting, thank you for posting smile

Lizz B. said in Peanut (at around 31 weeks):

lol! Karen, you’re so frank and I love it. “the non-constipating kind” of iron pills. hahaha.

i know how hard it is to not tell people the sex of your baby.  I am tempted to tell strangers or acquaintances what you’re having because, as Ben reasoned with the waiter, I’ll either never see them again or it’s not like their going to tell anyone of consequence.

/Karen/ said in Peanut (at around 31 weeks):

Thanks Kathleen! Glad you’re finding them interesting!

Kathleen said in Peanut (at around 31 weeks):

These posts are fascinating, Karen, and I’m happy/sad for you.

/Karen/ said in Peanut (at around 24 weeks):

Hey Little! One of the things that astounds me is that people all over the world give birth everyday in different circumstances, and they seem to get through it. Maybe all the bells and whistles of the western world are simply that—bells and whistles, and things we do to make ourselves feel better about such a painful and momentous occurrence. I’m sure Mongolia has its own ways of looking after their expectant mums!

Lizz B. said in Peanut (at around 24 weeks):

Great post, Karen.
As I said to you last Friday: the Toturo thing is gorgeous!
Thanks for posting about the changing relationships between friends.  I’ve been struggling to come to terms with my best friend’s relationship with her boyfriend and the loss I feel. It’s been 18mths now, but I guess it’s taking longer for me to deal with because he’s not something we talk about and I don’t often see them together.  However, it’s still known.  It’s good to know I’m not alone or going crazy or whatever.
Also, thanks for the updates on Peanut.  Can’t wait to meet him/her!

I think that your child will one day be thankful that they can read about what their mother was thinking. They won’t have to wonder if you’ve forgotten anything or just telling the good things! I think the positives are more believable when accompanied by the negatives, that’s just more realistic.

The PGP sounds really hard! Also not something that people talk about, so is it hard to get understanding from people when you need to go a little slower? Though perhaps they just expect that of pregnant women… gah, there are so many steps at MM! :(

I worry about the money stuff too… though I guess in Mongolia maybe they won’t do all those medical things so I won’t have to pay for them! raspberry

Keep blogging! You know I’m fascinated. ;p

/Karen/ said in Peanut (at around 24 weeks):

Thanks Miriam! That’s good to know!

Hi Karen,
Thanks for the long update. It sounds like you are experiencing very common emotions (high and low) of first-time expectant mothers.

In answer to your question about breastfeeding in 5mins - that’s pretty common. In the first few weeks as both you and baby are learning how to feed (it takes a while to get the hang of it)feeding takes a little while (about an hour for me and Alex). This was actually a blessing for me as it meant I could sit and rest for that period of time, 5 or 6 times a day! Lovely, especially as it was such a tiring time of my life, with all the adjusting that comes with the birth of a child.

The milk flow can be quite fast to begin with(often too fast for baby!) and it means they take in too much and then need to be burped, which all takes time. After awhile though your breasts will adjust and regulate themselves as they work out how much milk is needed. THey are amazing the way they work. They actually feel quite soft and empty after a few weeks and lots of new mums worry that they don’t hvae enough milk, but it is very normal, and just means your body has regulated the amount of milk it makes.

Check out the Australian Breastfeeding Association webpage - it is full of excellent information. I would recommend joining the association - you receive a magazine every 2 months, which is filled with wonderful articles. I found it very helpful (and still do after 3 years of feeding). A great bit of reading to have in your hands while sitting down to feed. You also receive an excellent book “Breastfeeding....naturally” which answers just about any question you may have about breastfeeding. I read it many many times!

Mim

Kathleen said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Congratulations again - and it is very interesting to hear what happens!

/Karen/ said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

@Sarah: Thanks for the tip RE Australian Breastfeeding Association! I never would have thought to look there. Ditto KMart: I was wondering if they did since Target don’t.

@Rae: Thanks for the tip! I’ll check it out.

@Little Rachel: Oh, I’ll definitely be up for visitors! I may not be very good company (brain-dead, etc.) but I’ll certainly appreciate visits!

@Rachel C: CONGRATS!!! So excited for you smile Yours sounds like a good philosophy. One day I shall have to blog about Outliers!

@CafeDave: Thanks for the tip!

@Elissa: Thanks for your kind words! It makes me happy that you and Dave were excited we were getting married! Thanks also for the prayers!

@Elsie: There are lots of other lovely things I could have said about you, but let’s not overload my readers, shall we? ;P

Aww...thanks for the lovely things you said about me! I enjoyed reading this post (as I do with all yours). xo

Congratulations to you both. I know you will be such wonderful parents. You sound WAY too sensible! grin
(Sorry to read that there were some unusual comments made about your marriage! We thought it was exciting. We still have a lovely photo of you & Ben in our lovely box of special memories. (I was only 22 when married & I was 30 when we had Bonnie...)
Everyone is different! I nodded through your post. SO many people feel the curious need to share their “horror stories” which is just dreadful. I remember complaining to David who said - go find people who are positive & listen to them. Great advice, which I did. Those people still have a big place in my heart because their advice was honest & gentle.
Bless you & Ben & the little Peanut. We pray all goes smoothly over the coming weeks/months ahead. We sometimes forget what a precious little miracle life really is…

cafedave said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Another book from the dad’s perspective I found helpful was From here to paternity - it’s an Australian book, and was followed up with a blog.

Rachel C said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Hi!

I’m so excited for you reading your blog about being pregnant smile I am 13 weeks pregnant with #2. 

You’re so right about all the pessimism “advice” that you get.  I got so mad about it but never found a good response.  I’ve had such joy right from day one with E that I just don’t want to buy into the negativity (I’m sure kids pick up on it too!).

My philosophy was/is to be a relaxed mum and from that figure out what was best for my baby/child.  Get advice when you’re not sure on things or want to know how other people approached things, read books (loved Outliers!) that aren’t all about parenting… but just enjoy. 

In a sample size of one to date, I’ve had such a happy, chilled out son right from day one.  People say all the craziest advice… glad you don’t do guilt smile

With love,
R

Little Rach said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Thanks so much for writing more! I love hearing how you’re going and all your thoughts.

After watching my sister I agree with you that it seems the first six months are perhaps the hardest. She got quite lonely at home all day; weekends were all right because then her husband was around but it’s just as you say… one feed ends then the next begins! If you are accepting visitors during this period then I hope to use some RDOs to come have grown-up conversations! smile

The book review of The Second Nine Months makes me want to read it now!

Names: We have one girl name that we both like and no boy names that we agree on. But they are also top-secret… so if anyone else uses them we can’t accuse them of theft! wink

Yay Peanut, keep on growing, can’t wait to meet you!

Hello! Thanks for sharing smile

Rae Green said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

I loved reading your pregnancy update! I am glad to hear that things are all going pretty well, and I hope the rest of your 2nd trimester is as good.

I just wanted to add, that some other blokes decided that there was not much for the fathers-t0-be, and made a couple of DVD’s just for expectant dads. They are called ‘Being Dad’and i think they are available at big W. I have both though, if you would like me to send them!

Just wanted to wish you all the best!
Love
Rae

re: gluten: no idea!! I didn’t have to go on that diet - it was probably related to the test I didn’t do.

At the risk of adding to your list of advice:

Re: maternity bras - because I’m big I had to look hard for something nice in my size and discovered the Australian Breastfeeding Association. They have a massive range online and most are (dare I say it) sexy. smile

Re: maternity clothes - Kmart have a nice range of basic stuff.. I only found out towards the end of pregnancy and I would have liked to know earlier!

Re: Parenting classes - if you’re at RPA you can just ring the midwives section (they’ll put you through) and ask directly.

Kathleen said in Beilharzen:

Congratulations again smile

Elsie said in Beilharzen:

Don’t laminate your ultrasound picture smile That is my advice.

Diane Lovell said in Beilharzen:

Congratulations! This is so fantastic! smile

Little said in Beilharzen:

Thanks so much for sharing all of this… people swap engagement stories but rarely pregnancy stories! And it’s kind of similar don’t you think, all this excitement leading up to a big day!

So happy for you guys! Actually never been more excited for anyone except my sister! I think it’s because I think that you will both be amazing parents and love the idea that someone could grow up in your family.

Looking forward to many more posts on the topic. smile

Jan said in Beilharzen:

Lovely news, Karen.

/Karen/ said in Beilharzen:

Thanks everyone! I will be sure to ask for help when I need it!

sammi said in Beilharzen:

Great pic!! Peanut is cute! :D
Praying for you all!
xx

Sarah said in Beilharzen:

:D
I had a similar sort of morning sickness.. except I threw up! I’m suitably impressed that you coped OS.. that must have been tough.
It sounds like you’re doing marvelously otherwise!
Book recommendation on something a bit less technical and a bit more human: ‘Birth’ http://www.birthnet.com.au/

Bec said in Beilharzen:

Praise be to God indeed!  Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Ben A said in Beilharzen:

Congratulations, Beilharzen! Welcome to the slightly-bewildering world of pregnancy (and birth...and children...). God has blessed you greatly with this new life. We’ll be praying for Peanut’s growth and development, and for you guys as you prepare.

I’m sure you’re surrounded by baby veterans, but always happy to help with books/advice/recommendations/listening.

B&L;

Fi said in Oblique:

Excellent job Karen! You SHOULD be pleased with yourself!

Have you discovered http://www.ravelry.com ? It is an excellent site with thousands of free patterns in its database, lots of support, tips, forums etc and of course - friends like me? Look me up when you get there - fionag77

PS Are you just wearing a bulky dress or are you sporting a bump under that dress?

sammi said in Oblique:

oooh.... It’s done and it looks great on you! xxx

Bec said in Oblique:

Well done on all that hard work!  It looks great and will be very snuggly come winter!

/Karen/ said in Fashioning (part 2):

Thanks for letting me know, Timo!

Timo Rissanen said in Fashioning (part 2):

Hi there,
Thanks for pointing out the shortcoming on our website. I’ll pass it on to my colleagues and hopefully it will be rectified soon.

The documentary at Fashioning Now was by Holly Kaye-Smith; I’d be more than happy to put you in touch with her if you’d like.

Again, thanks for the comment, much appreciate it!

Kind regards,
Timo Rissanen

/Karen/ said in Fashioning (part 1):

Thanks Mark! Much appreciated!

Blinks:

Via WhipUp. Easy: takes 5 min.

Jamie S Rich's advice on how to break into comics.

Via Mike Hyam. Parenting advice: how to raise your children in the Lord as a father.

Cheaper than a nursing home and they allow the elderly to stay in their own homes. Plus their children have peace of mind, knowing whether or not their parent has gotten out of bed, eaten, etc. But there are privacy concerns with such surveillance, and resistance from some of the elderly. Some love it though.

Via Luke Stevens. Father put photos of his baby son online 10 years ago and now finds out that the photo has spawned a Japanese meme.

Andy Schmidt's advice to artists and writers on how to break into comics.

Changing nightmares into dreams through therapy--particularly for PTSD patients.

Students sharing dorm rooms are increasingly bad at communicating with one another face-to-face and dealing with conflict. University administrators have spent more time trying to get them to negotiate and work things out. The parents are now more involved as well. Administrators changing procedures to get the students to own the process.

Via George. On empathy, men and women, the importance of empathy, empathy vs sympathy, and the effect the internet has on our relationships.

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