/karen/

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Maybe they think that they will be strong and temptation won’t happen to them??

Maybe you could just send the no-show girl an email or letter saying you hope everything’s okay, and it would be cool if you could catch up whenever convenient. And just leave it at that and pray, of course.

My BMI is about the same as yours (22.6, which is 23, I guess), but I wear one size up. You are a trim slender thing, aren’t you!

Your RSI joke is funny.

You made Kate and Leopold sound good; I disliked the version I saw, but the director’s cut sounds interesting.

Marshmallows sound fun, but they’re about 100 per cent sugar, so they might get a bit fidgety in church afterwards…

1. Everyone thinks temptation won’t happen to them but we’re all sinful creatures. They don’t seem to be going out of their way to avoid temptation and they haven’t even moved in with each other yet.
2. I wish I had her email address/postal address :( But will do about prayer.
3. I thought you were a trim slender thing! You look that way from the photos.
4. It’s mostly the beginning of Kate and Leopold that’s different—the rest is much the same. I kind of wish that some of the beginning stuff continued. Really, I just like that movie because of the Sting song, Meg Ryan’s wardrobe and Hugh Jackman’s character (though I wonder how it is that he is able to do so much for himself given that he lived the pampered life of a duke back in the 19th-century). I always wondered what happened to them afterwards and if she ever regreted her decision to go back. It can’t be easy for a career woman to fit into 19th-century society with 19th-century technology.
5. We don’t have church after Sunday school; Sunday school goes on during 5 o’clock church. So if they’re hyper, the parents have to deal with them at home!

BMI is evil, and I don’t know what SALT is.

I will try to remember to keep praying for you guys; I’m pretty shocking with it, but the situation you mentioned with the girl by the duckpond has re-motivated me somewhat.

Why is BMI evil, Ben? SALT is the AFES student magazine that comes out once a quarter. I think it’s once a quarter. Maybe it’s twice a year. It’s only being run by one person at the moment and she’s always keen on getting stuff. Can I dob you in?

Thanks for the prayers!

You may dob me in - I’d love to get into that kind of thing.

BMI is evil because it assumes that everyone is of equal ‘density’, regardless of size. I firmly believe that there are some people who are ‘big-boned’ (i.e. they will never be slender people) because of genetic factors - it doesn’t really help that I am one of those people. That, and BMI gets weird at extreme ends of the scale (e.g. Dad is 200cm tall, and is quite fit and reasonably slim for his size, yet the BMI puts him at the extraordinarily-obese end of the scale).

Ahem. Sorry about that.

Thanks for keeping me accountable with praying - it’s always easier when I’ve got something to pray for that’s specific!

I have a feeling that the Christian couple will not listen to anyone, or otherwise they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. Just support them. By that, I don’t mean condoning what they’re doing - it’s playing with fire. Just don’t condemn them and let them figure it out themselves + pray for them. Perhaps even wrap a Bible study or two around what they’re doing. Artfully of course. If you don’t trust yourself being tactful about it, then don’t do it at all.

Actually, what they’re doing is very serious, and condemnation should be made. There is not to be any immorality about God’s holy people, not even a hint. Tact doesn’t matter. Their ministers should admonish them.

I do not doubt the seriousness of what they are doing, but I don’t know how effective condemnation will be. It’s a difficult situation You are right though that they need to be told outright that what they’re doing is playing with fire, though *technically* they’re not doing anything wrong.

I just hope if they repent, they will be welcomed back like the prodigal son.

Face facts, they just want to have sex.

Not necessarily? Friends of mine who are now engaged, but were only going out then, went on a Europe holiday for six weeks in an unmarried state. I don’t think they slept in the same bed, but it’s the same tempting situation…

OK, not a fair comparison. Shutting up now.

It’s not that simple: he probably does and she definitely doesn’t. I know that much. Plus they’re both stubborn so I could talk until I’m blue and it won’t change their minds. I’ve just told her what I think and left it at that.

I don’t understand people.

But I know that if two people live together its unlikely that they won’t have sex.

I agree that that condemnation from individuals would likely be ineffectual, and the whole situation is none of my particular business, but I also see that these are unbiblical attitudes to have. They ARE doing something wrong. Something terrible. “Not even a hint” = no grey areas. Church discipline is a really loving thing to do; what could be worse than letting them persist in such a horrible dishonourable hurtful thing in God’s sight just so no one gets offended?

I agree, Deb. That’s what Paul’s advocating in 1 Corinthians 5. It even says somewhere in 1 or 2 Timothy that it should be done publicly. This is a last resort sort of thing—this is when you’ve already tried talking to them and persuading them that what they’re doing is wrong.

Unfortunately these two people are planning to leave their current church very soon and join another one.

Oh no! Is this where a community of Christian friends needs to step in?

Yeah ... I think this is a situation when you let them know what God says, and what you think, then leave it.

If they’ve made the decision, they’ve made it. The impact of what you say, has a habit creating resolution, and determination to enact that decision. (However this is _not_ an excuse to say nothing)

But in saying that I agree with Deb, and Karen, on 1 Cor 5, about public admonishment, in order that Godly sorrow could bring them to repentence. But it burns my heart, to think that in challenging them, I too often burn bridges, even if it is for the sake of the Gospel. 

What the challenge is, and this is one I think we too often fail, as Jane’s pointed out, is when the return to us, realising they’ve made a mistake, how we then treat them…  Does that make sense.

(Don’t want to hijack Karen’s comments, but what is your take on Christian community… do you think we _actually_ live as a community)

“ITS is a complete dictatorship” likely for good reasons, it cost money to maintain web sites so if you write PHP scripts and other custom things, eventually someone has to come back to it and maintain it which costs time and money.
Its best to make things as easy to maintain there-by lowering the cost.

No one can know the impact of what you say on another person. I’ve done things that I knew were wrong and made up little excuses for them, and now I wish people had told me off for it in a godly way. I would have resented it at the time for sure, but it would have affected me all the same and I probably would have got less hurt at the end of things.

When they return (and they *will* if they are children of God, because he never lets his children go), we rejoice at their repentance, and love them by not bringing up their sin. Love keeps no record of past wrongs.

Community will only work if we stop holding on to our individual prides and get to know ourselves through our relationships with other people. Forget about what the world says about relationships - that if you tell people off for doing wrong things then they’ll only be more inclined to do it, discipline is inappropriate for adults, love means supporting people’s decisions and actions no matter how horrendous - and live with each other the way the Bible says.