/karen/

The ethics of lying

Saturday, 20 March, 2004

The topic of lying came up in Bible study this week but I don't remember how. I remember that I was saying something about the people who hid Jews in the basement and lied to the Nazis when they came to the door and how they were right to do that. One girl said emphatically, “I think that's wrong; I wouldn't have lied.” This quickly led to a discussion about lying and I think I upset a couple of girls in the group by saying that Jesus lied (well he did! Read on to find out where in the Bible this shocking event occurs!) But because I didn't get to address the topic properly (as we were in the middle of Bible study and it was tangential), I emailed some of the girls afterwards. I thought you might like to read what I wrote, lest you think me a condemned heretic:

Update: Ben has turned what I wrote into an article which expresses much better what I was trying to say.

(Email begins here.)

To continue the discussion on lying outside of Bible study, I thought I would email you both about it since I didn't really expand on my thoughts on the matter during last weeks' study due to time constraints and the fact that it was pretty off-topic.

I wanted to quote to you the bit on lying in The How and Why of Love: An Introduction to Evangelical Ethics by Michael Hill but unfortunately I do not own the book and the Chaplaincy doesn't have a spare copy either. (I should really purchase it since I refer to it so much.) Michael Hill is a lecturer at Moore College and he wrote the book to accompany the course on ethics that he teaches there. Anyways, from memory, what he spends the first half of the book establishing is an evangelical hermeneutic (ie. way of understanding the world). Like I said last Thursday, whereas the world emphasises the needs of the community over the needs of individuals, or the needs of individuals over the needs of the community, as Christians we are to do both. Michael Hill establishes this concept which he calls “mutual love relationships” which is just an expression of that. He said that the goal at all times is to maintain these mutual love relationships and therefore this is the governing principle when it comes to ethics in all sorts of different areas (he explores some of these areas in his book: divorce, homosexuality, abortion, etc.)

How does this relate to lying? Well, firstly lying in the Bible is not simply saying something that isn't true. The command in Exodus 20:16 is “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (reiterated in Deuteronomy 5:20). It's not simply bearing false witness. It's an action done against your neighbour which will break the mutual love relationship. Paul repeats this in Colossians 3:9: “Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices.” (my emphasis added).

It is interesting the Jesus (and later Paul) emphasises that the second greatest commandment is to “Love your neighbour as yourself.” Jesus says this in Matthew 22:35-40, Mark 12:31 and Luke 10:27, and Paul reiterates this in Romans 13:9-10 and Galatians 5:14. This command, to love your neighbour as yourself, is not explicitly spelled out in the list of commandments in Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5 but it does sum up and encapsulate the last five commandments.

Now, many people will claim that Jesus never lied and that lying is a sin. I don't want to seem like a heretic by saying that lying is not a sin but I would say that it depends on the lie. There are instances in the Bible where lying is a good thing. For example, the midwives in Exodus 1:15-21:

Then the king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, [16] “When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live.” [17] But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. [18] So the king of Egypt called the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and let the male children live?” [19] The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” [20] So God dealt well with the midwives. And the people multiplied and grew very strong. [21] And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families.

The midwives feared God more than Pharaoh so God rewarded them by giving them husbands and children. Later, Rahab does the same thing (Joshua 2:1-6):

And Joshua the son of Nun sent two men secretly from Shittim as spies, saying, “Go, view the land, especially Jericho.” And they went and came into the house of a prostitute whose name was Rahab and lodged there. [2] And it was told to the king of Jericho, “Behold, men of Israel have come here tonight to search out the land.” [3] Then the king of Jericho sent to Rahab, saying, “Bring out the men who have come to you, who entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land.” [4] But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. And she said, “True, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. [5] And when the gate was about to be closed at dark, the men went out. I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them.” [6] But she had brought them up to the roof and hid them with the stalks of flax that she had laid in order on the roof.

Rahab knew perfectly well where the men came from and where they had gone (or hadn't gone, in this case). She indicates as much in the following verses (9-13):

“I know that the Lord has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you. [10] For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction. [11] And as soon as we heard it, our hearts melted, and there was no spirit left in any man because of you, for the Lord your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. [12] Now then, please swear to me by the Lord that, as I have dealt kindly with you, you also will deal kindly with my father's house, and give me a sure sign [13] that you will save alive my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and deliver our lives from death.”

And God rewarded her in the sense that he provided her with a husband (Salmon) and children (Boaz) and a descendent who became the greatest of all - Jesus. Not to mention she became part of the nation of Israel, God's chosen people.

In each case, the action of lying was taken to preserve the mutual love relationship. There are, obviously, many examples where lying destroys or damages the mutual love relationship. Cain lying to God (Genesis 4); Abraham lying to Pharaoh and Abimelech about Sarah being his wife (Genesis 12 and 20); Jacob lying to Isaac (Genesis 27); Laban lying to Jacob (Genesis 29); the sons of Jacob lying to the men of Shechem (Genesis 34); Tamar lying to Judah (Genesis 38) and that's in Genesis alone!

But there are lies that are sometimes told that do not damage or destroy the mutual love relationship. For example, Jesus in John 7:1-10:

After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. [2] Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. [3] So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. [4] For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” [5] For not even his brothers believed in him. [6] Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. [7] The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. [8] You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” [9] After saying this, he remained in Galilee. [10] But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

or Acts 23:6:

Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

(which wasn't 100% true) or 1 Corinthians 1:12-16 where Paul writes,

What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” [13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? [14] I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, [15] so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. [16] (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)

(He might be lying there by accident; we don't know if he baptised anyone else! But he's being very vague there so it's possible he got it wrong.)

These are insignificant lies, but lies in the sense that they aren't telling the whole truth. But it doesn't matter that they aren't telling the whole truth as it doesn't affect anyone.

I am not saying that we should lie willy nilly and that lies don't matter. But I am saying that we should keep in perspective love relationships and what really matters. Sometimes, like in the case of the midwives and Rahab and the God-fearing Christians who hid Jews during the second World War, lying is the right thing to do.

Feel free to send me your thoughts on the matter.

/Karen/ had a thought at 7:50 PM | Comments (4)
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Comments

This is an incredibly tough issue for any christian.  Everyone has their opinion on it, and its one of those issues that people are loath to change theres about.  I feel moved to write something here, but I really dont kinow what.  Let me explain. 

Untill very recently I have been of the belief that all lieing is sin, and lived my life accordingly. However through some indepth discussions with a friend of mine, I came to the conclusion that lieing can cause great good.  It really does depend on the audiance, the situation, and your reasons.  a judgement must be made as to how to apply this tool.  Im a truthfull, blunt person by nature, and it would take an extradinary set of circumstances to make we willing lie and believe I was doing the right thing.

In addition, depending entirely on what you define as a lie, everyone lies, subconciously, every day.  By omission, by doubble meaning, anything that oculd mislead someone, even if its not conciously done, is suspect.  I personally dont see this in the same category as blatently lieing. But having this pointed out to me was the first step in realising that its not just a cut-and-dry decision. 

Anyway, I dont really know where Im going with this except to say that its an incredibly complicated issue.  Far more so than most believe.

So Pray about it.  God bless.

Posted by Matt on 22 March, 2004 3:06 PM

If you went around being truthful no-one would talk to you.

What do you mean by that.  If you went arround speaking everyt thought that came into your head, then yes.  Also noone would get a word in edgeways, and youd get a really sore throat.

Ever read Robert Jordan?  The Aes Sedia go arround speaking only the truth, the othe extreme interpretation, everything that say is true, and everything they say is so misleading it can be taken 7 ways.

Theres another vector even in always speaking the truth.  I cant quite lay a finger on it, its something about how much of the truth you speak.

Posted by Matt on 24 March, 2004 11:50 AM

I love this discussion!  Quick comments: agree with ‘preserving love relationship’ and would add that we need to link godly motivation to action.  ie. is my desire to preserve the love relationship in the best interest of the other person/people, or is it about self-preservation?

Also, there’s a great story in one of the Corrie Ten-Boom (sp?) books about a family who hid a Jewish family in a room accessed by a trap door under the kitchen table. When the family had a surprise visit by local Nazi officials who asked where they were hiding the Jews, the youngest child of the family answered, “Under the table!” The officials checked under the table and failed to see the trapdoor.

The child had obviously been well-versed on ‘do not lie’ and obeyed.  It’s always helpful to remember that God is sovereign and will honour godly motivation whether we understand the whys and wherefores of hermeneutical reasoning or not!

Thanks.

Posted by Steph on 08 April, 2004 1:08 PM

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Current:

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heard: Aimee Mann (Enmore Theatre) 04/09/2009

heard: Ben Folds Solo (Opera House) 31/08/2009

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seen: The Phantom of the Opera 17/08/2009

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seen: District 9 10/08/2009

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Comment:

/Karen/ said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

@Sarah: Thanks for the tip RE Australian Breastfeeding Association! I never would have thought to look there. Ditto KMart: I was wondering if they did since Target don’t.

@Rae: Thanks for the tip! I’ll check it out.

@Little Rachel: Oh, I’ll definitely be up for visitors! I may not be very good company (brain-dead, etc.) but I’ll certainly appreciate visits!

@Rachel C: CONGRATS!!! So excited for you smile Yours sounds like a good philosophy. One day I shall have to blog about Outliers!

@CafeDave: Thanks for the tip!

@Elissa: Thanks for your kind words! It makes me happy that you and Dave were excited we were getting married! Thanks also for the prayers!

@Elsie: There are lots of other lovely things I could have said about you, but let’s not overload my readers, shall we? ;P

Aww...thanks for the lovely things you said about me! I enjoyed reading this post (as I do with all yours). xo

Congratulations to you both. I know you will be such wonderful parents. You sound WAY too sensible! grin
(Sorry to read that there were some unusual comments made about your marriage! We thought it was exciting. We still have a lovely photo of you & Ben in our lovely box of special memories. (I was only 22 when married & I was 30 when we had Bonnie...)
Everyone is different! I nodded through your post. SO many people feel the curious need to share their “horror stories” which is just dreadful. I remember complaining to David who said - go find people who are positive & listen to them. Great advice, which I did. Those people still have a big place in my heart because their advice was honest & gentle.
Bless you & Ben & the little Peanut. We pray all goes smoothly over the coming weeks/months ahead. We sometimes forget what a precious little miracle life really is…

cafedave said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Another book from the dad’s perspective I found helpful was From here to paternity - it’s an Australian book, and was followed up with a blog.

Rachel C said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Hi!

I’m so excited for you reading your blog about being pregnant smile I am 13 weeks pregnant with #2. 

You’re so right about all the pessimism “advice” that you get.  I got so mad about it but never found a good response.  I’ve had such joy right from day one with E that I just don’t want to buy into the negativity (I’m sure kids pick up on it too!).

My philosophy was/is to be a relaxed mum and from that figure out what was best for my baby/child.  Get advice when you’re not sure on things or want to know how other people approached things, read books (loved Outliers!) that aren’t all about parenting… but just enjoy. 

In a sample size of one to date, I’ve had such a happy, chilled out son right from day one.  People say all the craziest advice… glad you don’t do guilt smile

With love,
R

Little Rach said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

Thanks so much for writing more! I love hearing how you’re going and all your thoughts.

After watching my sister I agree with you that it seems the first six months are perhaps the hardest. She got quite lonely at home all day; weekends were all right because then her husband was around but it’s just as you say… one feed ends then the next begins! If you are accepting visitors during this period then I hope to use some RDOs to come have grown-up conversations! smile

The book review of The Second Nine Months makes me want to read it now!

Names: We have one girl name that we both like and no boy names that we agree on. But they are also top-secret… so if anyone else uses them we can’t accuse them of theft! wink

Yay Peanut, keep on growing, can’t wait to meet you!

Hello! Thanks for sharing smile

Rae Green said in Peanut (at around 18 weeks):

I loved reading your pregnancy update! I am glad to hear that things are all going pretty well, and I hope the rest of your 2nd trimester is as good.

I just wanted to add, that some other blokes decided that there was not much for the fathers-t0-be, and made a couple of DVD’s just for expectant dads. They are called ‘Being Dad’and i think they are available at big W. I have both though, if you would like me to send them!

Just wanted to wish you all the best!
Love
Rae

re: gluten: no idea!! I didn’t have to go on that diet - it was probably related to the test I didn’t do.

At the risk of adding to your list of advice:

Re: maternity bras - because I’m big I had to look hard for something nice in my size and discovered the Australian Breastfeeding Association. They have a massive range online and most are (dare I say it) sexy. smile

Re: maternity clothes - Kmart have a nice range of basic stuff.. I only found out towards the end of pregnancy and I would have liked to know earlier!

Re: Parenting classes - if you’re at RPA you can just ring the midwives section (they’ll put you through) and ask directly.

Kathleen said in Beilharzen:

Congratulations again smile

Elsie said in Beilharzen:

Don’t laminate your ultrasound picture smile That is my advice.

Diane Lovell said in Beilharzen:

Congratulations! This is so fantastic! smile

Little said in Beilharzen:

Thanks so much for sharing all of this… people swap engagement stories but rarely pregnancy stories! And it’s kind of similar don’t you think, all this excitement leading up to a big day!

So happy for you guys! Actually never been more excited for anyone except my sister! I think it’s because I think that you will both be amazing parents and love the idea that someone could grow up in your family.

Looking forward to many more posts on the topic. smile

Jan said in Beilharzen:

Lovely news, Karen.

/Karen/ said in Beilharzen:

Thanks everyone! I will be sure to ask for help when I need it!

sammi said in Beilharzen:

Great pic!! Peanut is cute! :D
Praying for you all!
xx

Sarah said in Beilharzen:

:D
I had a similar sort of morning sickness.. except I threw up! I’m suitably impressed that you coped OS.. that must have been tough.
It sounds like you’re doing marvelously otherwise!
Book recommendation on something a bit less technical and a bit more human: ‘Birth’ http://www.birthnet.com.au/

Bec said in Beilharzen:

Praise be to God indeed!  Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Ben A said in Beilharzen:

Congratulations, Beilharzen! Welcome to the slightly-bewildering world of pregnancy (and birth...and children...). God has blessed you greatly with this new life. We’ll be praying for Peanut’s growth and development, and for you guys as you prepare.

I’m sure you’re surrounded by baby veterans, but always happy to help with books/advice/recommendations/listening.

B&L;

Fi said in Oblique:

Excellent job Karen! You SHOULD be pleased with yourself!

Have you discovered http://www.ravelry.com ? It is an excellent site with thousands of free patterns in its database, lots of support, tips, forums etc and of course - friends like me? Look me up when you get there - fionag77

PS Are you just wearing a bulky dress or are you sporting a bump under that dress?

sammi said in Oblique:

oooh.... It’s done and it looks great on you! xxx

Bec said in Oblique:

Well done on all that hard work!  It looks great and will be very snuggly come winter!

/Karen/ said in Fashioning (part 2):

Thanks for letting me know, Timo!

Timo Rissanen said in Fashioning (part 2):

Hi there,
Thanks for pointing out the shortcoming on our website. I’ll pass it on to my colleagues and hopefully it will be rectified soon.

The documentary at Fashioning Now was by Holly Kaye-Smith; I’d be more than happy to put you in touch with her if you’d like.

Again, thanks for the comment, much appreciate it!

Kind regards,
Timo Rissanen

/Karen/ said in Fashioning (part 1):

Thanks Mark! Much appreciated!

Mark Crean said in Fashioning (part 1):

Rich survey, Karen. Particularly I was struck by the notion of Jesus being clothed with our sins. I heard recently somebody suggest the crown of thorns was a kings crown but it was made of the symbol of the curse in the Garden - thorns. I would like to read your thoughts about Joseph’s coat of many colours.
Looking forward to the next installment. Regards,Mark

Kathleen said in Yvonne (Part 3):

It is lovely - and looks great on you.

You’ve made me want to read it - though I may need an interpreter at times!

Kathleen said in Bag learner (reprise):

Well done with the sewing!
I think it looks good - very relaxed and spring-y.

/Karen/ said in Creative endeavour:

Hey Sandra! Thanks for the tip! I read it yesterday, but I struggled a bit because Lewis doesn’t start from the Bible. I wasn’t convinced by his argument. What did you think?

Interesting post Karen - Thanks smile
I like the ending too! :D
xxx

Fantastic post, Karen. Just great. Thanks!

Thanks Bec! Eternal life just keeps getting better and better ...

I do like the way you ended this post - excellent thought.

Personally I don’t feel that way. Maybe that’s something you should blog about?

Wow. Lots of things to pick up on there. It’s been interesting to see the changes to your blog these last 6-12 months: Twitter is certainly more immediate, but are there (gasp) downsides to having its constant buzz in the ear?

Is our (already fractured) ability to concentrate on a single relationship at a time further jeapordised by the regular buzz of tweetdeck (and worse yet, by the imagined sense of loss that goes with being off the grid)?

Or am I just projecting my own fears?

sandra j said in Creative endeavour:

Hi Karen!
If you’re still thinking about this… I just read CS Lewis’s essay “Learning in War-time” which exactly addresses this issue (ie. how can we justify cultural & aesthetic pursuits when people are going to hell around us?).  Have you read it?  i’d be interested to hear what you think..
(i have it in his little volume “Transposition and other Addresses”, but it’s easily findable online)

Sarah said in Creative endeavour:

I’m doing my own series on the trials and tribulations of writing on my own blog here http://sedshed.blogspot.com/search/label/From%20Head%20to%20Hand
It’s coming along slowly smile

Coincidentily, I stumbled upon the above Phonogram vs. the Fans cover when digging around for ID concepts for Salt. A disturbingly brilliant image.

Thanks Karen. At the very least, this post gives some context to your myriad of phonogram tweets. At best, it has reinvigorated my stagnated appreciation of comics.

Seriously, though 4,549 words. Is that the best you can do? I say, longer!

Blinks:

Maybe discomfort is better for writing.

Showing her daughter that women are great by doing tours and walking in the footsteps of famous women. I like that this article is about engagement.

Jordan White, editor for Marvel, answers questions.

Jamie McKelvie answers questions.

Vision therapy as a treatment for ADHD, learning disabilities and even autism. The scientific community's opinion. The results of concentrated therapy.

Kieron Gillen on Phonogram, Siege, Ares, Loki and his collaborative relationship with Jamie McKelvie.

Superheroes and how they have changed the way we see urban landscape. Their attraction to New York.

Kieron Gillen talking about Phonogram's run and the effect it had on its audience.

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