The mechanics of the cross
Monday, 27 June, 2005
After watching The Passion of the Christ last year, reading Ben's review of it and his follow-up article on the over-emphasis of penal substitutionary atonement, I recall being completely confused. I was confused about the cross and how it saves us. I was confused about the logic of 2 Ways to Live. I was confused about a lot of things but perhaps 2 Ways to Live is a good starting point.
You can read the 2 Ways to Live presentation by following this link. The way it is presented on screen is different to the way I think about or the way that I lay it out when I do the presentation with people. I normally do the table thing that looks something like this (sorry, no pics—can't be bothered scanning them in and my crowns always look sloppy):
1God is the loving ruler of the world. He made the world. He made us rulers of the world under him. (Revelation 4:11) But is that the way it is now? |
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2We all reject the ruler—God—by trying to run life our own way without him. But we fail to rule ourselves or society or the world. (Romans 3:10-12) What will God do about this rebellion? |
4Because of his love, God sent his son into the world: the man Jesus Christ. Jesus always lived under God's rule. Yet by dying in our place, he took our punishment and brought forgiveness (1 Peter 3:18) But that's not all ... |
3God won't let us rebel forever. God's punishment for our rebellion is death and judgement. (Hebrews 9:27) God's justice sounds hard. But ... |
5God raised Jesus to life again as the ruler of the world. Jesus has conquered death, now gives new life, and will return to judge. (1 Peter 1:3) Well, where does that leave us? |
6The two ways to live: |
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Our way:
Result:
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God's new way:
Result:
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(John 3:36) Which of these represents the way you want to live? |
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The thing that has always confused me is that Box 4 says that the punishment for sin is death and judgement and then Box 5 says that Jesus takes both upon himself for our sake but, if that is the case, why do we still die? (I think I know the answer to the death one now.) Why do we still face the Judgement Day? (I'm not 100% sure on this one.)
But I think now my problem is I am trying to understand too much about the mechanics of the cross. Last week in Doctrine 1 John Woodhouse finished off his lecture on The Atonement and spent a lot of time dwelling on the subject of penal substitutionary atonement—the idea that Jesus was punished in our place on our behalf to make amends for our sins. John pointed out how much this doctrine has been debated and defended by giving us a taste of the opposing sides.
- Some do not like the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement because they think it is unfair: how could a just God punish the innocent (Jesus) in place of the guilty? That's not justice; that's injustice!
- Some do not like the idea of a God being angry at sin because God is a God of love and he could not possibly be angry enough at anyone to condemn them to hell.
- Some have issues with the fact that our guilt is somehow transferred onto Jesus and they say they can't be possible. They also have an issue with the mathematics: how can the life of one man (even if he is God) atone for the lives of millions of sinners? It doesn't add up.
John answered the objections:
- Substituting the innocent in place of the guilty is only just if it's God doing the substituting. He didn't take some (hypothetical) innocent person and punish them in place of the guilty; he took the punishment upon himself.
- God is angry at sin because God is holy. His holiness necessarily results in his justice—he must put things to rights. He is the only one equipped to do this job because he is the only one who is perfect, who knows everything and who can judge justly. We must not forget that we have all rebelled against God (Box 3) and are deserving of his wrath and condemnation.
- That one man can die as a “ransom for many” (Mark 10:45) is just something we have to accept; we don't understand how it works and we probably won't understand how it works until we get to heaven. Ditto the problem of transferring guilt.
What I am trying to say (in my very convoluted way which tries to tie on all the thoughts I have around the subject) is that it is okay if you do not completely 100% understand the cross. John said this last week and it made me feel a lot better about thinking myself sub-Christian because I didn't really get how it works. I suppose the cross is a bit like the Trinity; we're told that God is three persons in one and we don't understand how or why it is possible but we're simply told that this is true. Similarly, we are given insights into the cross and its various aspects—Christ's blood being an atoning sacrifice which covers over our sins like the Old Testament sacrificial system (Hebrews); Jesus died as a “ransom for many” (Mark 10:45); Jesus was a propitiation for our sins (ie. he turned aside God's wrath that should have rightly fallen on us: Rom 3:25; Heb 2:17; 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10), etc. but despite all these little glimmers, we don't get a sense of the whole—how it is possible that one man's blood should atone for many and that he should die as a ransom for many; how it is possible that one man, God in flesh, should turn aside the wrath of God onto himself (or even what that means; people tell me that death and judgement are the same but I don't understand how they are if we are to face God after death at the judgement seat), etc.
Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe in penal substitutionary atonement. I am glad that Jesus died for my sins and rose again for my justification. I am thankful for this gift of God's grace, even if I don't completely understand it. I'm just saying that it's okay I don't completely understand it and I don't think sermons should be attempting to explain it all when they can't.
In conclusion I would like to say a few things which I do not think are true with regards to penal substitutionary atonement:
- Christ's suffering does not save us. In many sermons I've heard, people make a big deal out of the fact that he was flogged, the nails went through his hands, he was asphyxiated, etc. In Hebrews 5:8 we learn that through his suffering he learned obedience. Hebrews 2:18 tells that, because he suffered while being tempted, he is able to help us too who suffer while being tempted. But his suffering does not atone for our sin.
- Neither does spending three days in hell (which isn't true). I don't think Jesus went to hell for three days—to my knowledge there is little in the Bible that supports that view apart from that obscure passage in 1 Peter 3:18-22 but I don't think that Peter is talking about hell there; I think he's talking about Jesus preaching his victory to the Nephilim/Sons of God/fallen angels from Genesis 6:4 who intermarried with the daughters of men and were imprisoned in 2 Peter 2:4. What happened in those three days between Jesus' death and resurrection? I don't really know but the important thing is that Jesus was dead. He really did die. He didn't just pass out and then revive again in the tomb. He was dead and he was buried and then, after three days, God raised him from the dead.
- Jesus' death alone saves us. Why do we feel that we need to add to it? Is it too simple or too complicated for us that our preachers often feel the need to elaborate (perhaps motivated by some morbid fascination with the Roman practice of crucifixion)? The Bible doesn't dwell on the details; why should we?
- Even though the Bible doesn't dwell on the details of Jesus' death and sacrifice (apart to say that he died and that his death was a sacrifice), the Bible speaks a lot about the results of Jesus' death—justification (Romans 3:23-24; 5:9); eternal life (John 3:36; Rom 6:22-23); the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13—wow, just look at the rest of the things in Ephesians 1!); reconciliation with God (Rom 5:10); freedom from slavery to sin (Rom 6:17-18); glory (2 Thess 2:14); and, of course, adoption (Galatians 3:26). We don't know how Jesus' death achieves these things for us but what matters is that they do.
Current:
seen: Moon 15/10/2009
read: The Incredibles 11/10/2009
seen: She's the Man 05/10/2009
read: I Kill Giants (Joe Kelly and J. M. Ken Niimura) 04/10/2009
read: Astro City The Dark Ages Book 1: Brothers and Other Strangers (Kurt Busiek, Brent Anderson and Alex Ross) 04/10/2009
seen: Children of Men 02/10/2009
seen: Metric (The Metro) 30/09/2009
seen: 500 Days of Summer 25/09/2009
seen: The September Issue 18/09/2009
seen: Gilmore Girls: Season 1 17/09/2009
read: Flight (Volume 1) (edited by Kazu Kibuishi) 16/09/2009
seen: Ponyo 11/09/2009
read: Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? (Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert) 05/09/2009
heard: Aimee Mann (Enmore Theatre) 04/09/2009
heard: Ben Folds Solo (Opera House) 31/08/2009
read: Phonogram: Rue Britannia (Kieron Gillen and Jamie McKelvie) 26/08/2009
seen: Northanger Abbey 20/08/2009
read: The Princess Diaries (Meg Cabot) 18/08/2009
seen: The Phantom of the Opera 17/08/2009
seen: Who Framed Roger Rabbit? 10/08/2009
seen: District 9 10/08/2009
read: Shortcomings (Adrian Tomine) 02/08/2009
read: AIR Volume 1: Letters from Lost Countries (Willow Wilson and M.K. Perker) 28/07/2009
seen: Persepolis 25/07/2009
seen: Ghost Town 25/07/2009
heard: Gutter Twins (Seymour Centre) 23/07/2009
seen: Coco Avant Chanel 20/07/2009
seen: Gutenberg! The Musical (Seymour Centre) 16/07/2009
seen: So You Think You Can Dance? Australia Live Tour (Sydney Entertainment Centre) 11/07/2009
seen: Every Little Step 07/07/2009
seen: Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen 03/07/2009
seen: Synecdoche, New York 30/06/2009
seen: Charlie's Angels 27/06/2009
seen: Penelope 26/06/2009
seen: Coraline 10/06/2009
seen: The Sky Crawlers 08/06/2009
seen: The Bourne Ultimatum 07/06/2009
seen: The Bourne Supremacy 07/06/2009
seen: The Bourne Identity 06/06/2009
seen: Stick it 05/06/2009
Comment:
I don’t think it’s exclusively the change of temperature: young babies like to be cuddled up (or wrapped in a blanket or similar) as they adjust to being on the outside after so long being wrapped up on the inside.
Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense that babies would cry if you put them in a cold bed! I totally never thought of that!
I love your posts, they are so fascinating! :D
Oh Jess! There are so many good things about Sydney 
Looks like really nice adventures! I don’t really think of Sydney as a place to explore.. hmm.. you have opened my mind up to The Staycation.
I get depressed at the adrenaline crash also because then I have time to think about how shitty everything is lol.
Hmm...food for thought indeed. V. interesting, thank you for posting
lol! Karen, you’re so frank and I love it. “the non-constipating kind” of iron pills. hahaha.
i know how hard it is to not tell people the sex of your baby. I am tempted to tell strangers or acquaintances what you’re having because, as Ben reasoned with the waiter, I’ll either never see them again or it’s not like their going to tell anyone of consequence.
Thanks Kathleen! Glad you’re finding them interesting!
These posts are fascinating, Karen, and I’m happy/sad for you.
Hey Little! One of the things that astounds me is that people all over the world give birth everyday in different circumstances, and they seem to get through it. Maybe all the bells and whistles of the western world are simply that—bells and whistles, and things we do to make ourselves feel better about such a painful and momentous occurrence. I’m sure Mongolia has its own ways of looking after their expectant mums!
Great post, Karen.
As I said to you last Friday: the Toturo thing is gorgeous!
Thanks for posting about the changing relationships between friends. I’ve been struggling to come to terms with my best friend’s relationship with her boyfriend and the loss I feel. It’s been 18mths now, but I guess it’s taking longer for me to deal with because he’s not something we talk about and I don’t often see them together. However, it’s still known. It’s good to know I’m not alone or going crazy or whatever.
Also, thanks for the updates on Peanut. Can’t wait to meet him/her!
I think that your child will one day be thankful that they can read about what their mother was thinking. They won’t have to wonder if you’ve forgotten anything or just telling the good things! I think the positives are more believable when accompanied by the negatives, that’s just more realistic.
The PGP sounds really hard! Also not something that people talk about, so is it hard to get understanding from people when you need to go a little slower? Though perhaps they just expect that of pregnant women… gah, there are so many steps at MM! :(
I worry about the money stuff too… though I guess in Mongolia maybe they won’t do all those medical things so I won’t have to pay for them! 
Keep blogging! You know I’m fascinated. ;p
Thanks Miriam! That’s good to know!
Hi Karen,
Thanks for the long update. It sounds like you are experiencing very common emotions (high and low) of first-time expectant mothers.
In answer to your question about breastfeeding in 5mins - that’s pretty common. In the first few weeks as both you and baby are learning how to feed (it takes a while to get the hang of it)feeding takes a little while (about an hour for me and Alex). This was actually a blessing for me as it meant I could sit and rest for that period of time, 5 or 6 times a day! Lovely, especially as it was such a tiring time of my life, with all the adjusting that comes with the birth of a child.
The milk flow can be quite fast to begin with(often too fast for baby!) and it means they take in too much and then need to be burped, which all takes time. After awhile though your breasts will adjust and regulate themselves as they work out how much milk is needed. THey are amazing the way they work. They actually feel quite soft and empty after a few weeks and lots of new mums worry that they don’t hvae enough milk, but it is very normal, and just means your body has regulated the amount of milk it makes.
Check out the Australian Breastfeeding Association webpage - it is full of excellent information. I would recommend joining the association - you receive a magazine every 2 months, which is filled with wonderful articles. I found it very helpful (and still do after 3 years of feeding). A great bit of reading to have in your hands while sitting down to feed. You also receive an excellent book “Breastfeeding....naturally” which answers just about any question you may have about breastfeeding. I read it many many times!
Mim
Congratulations again - and it is very interesting to hear what happens!
@Sarah: Thanks for the tip RE Australian Breastfeeding Association! I never would have thought to look there. Ditto KMart: I was wondering if they did since Target don’t.
@Rae: Thanks for the tip! I’ll check it out.
@Little Rachel: Oh, I’ll definitely be up for visitors! I may not be very good company (brain-dead, etc.) but I’ll certainly appreciate visits!
@Rachel C: CONGRATS!!! So excited for you Yours sounds like a good philosophy. One day I shall have to blog about Outliers!
@CafeDave: Thanks for the tip!
@Elissa: Thanks for your kind words! It makes me happy that you and Dave were excited we were getting married! Thanks also for the prayers!
@Elsie: There are lots of other lovely things I could have said about you, but let’s not overload my readers, shall we? ;P
Aww...thanks for the lovely things you said about me! I enjoyed reading this post (as I do with all yours). xo
Congratulations to you both. I know you will be such wonderful parents. You sound WAY too sensible! 
(Sorry to read that there were some unusual comments made about your marriage! We thought it was exciting. We still have a lovely photo of you & Ben in our lovely box of special memories. (I was only 22 when married & I was 30 when we had Bonnie...)
Everyone is different! I nodded through your post. SO many people feel the curious need to share their “horror stories” which is just dreadful. I remember complaining to David who said - go find people who are positive & listen to them. Great advice, which I did. Those people still have a big place in my heart because their advice was honest & gentle.
Bless you & Ben & the little Peanut. We pray all goes smoothly over the coming weeks/months ahead. We sometimes forget what a precious little miracle life really is…
Another book from the dad’s perspective I found helpful was From here to paternity - it’s an Australian book, and was followed up with a blog.
Hi!
I’m so excited for you reading your blog about being pregnant I am 13 weeks pregnant with #2.
You’re so right about all the pessimism “advice” that you get. I got so mad about it but never found a good response. I’ve had such joy right from day one with E that I just don’t want to buy into the negativity (I’m sure kids pick up on it too!).
My philosophy was/is to be a relaxed mum and from that figure out what was best for my baby/child. Get advice when you’re not sure on things or want to know how other people approached things, read books (loved Outliers!) that aren’t all about parenting… but just enjoy.
In a sample size of one to date, I’ve had such a happy, chilled out son right from day one. People say all the craziest advice… glad you don’t do guilt
With love,
R
Thanks so much for writing more! I love hearing how you’re going and all your thoughts.
After watching my sister I agree with you that it seems the first six months are perhaps the hardest. She got quite lonely at home all day; weekends were all right because then her husband was around but it’s just as you say… one feed ends then the next begins! If you are accepting visitors during this period then I hope to use some RDOs to come have grown-up conversations!
The book review of The Second Nine Months makes me want to read it now!
Names: We have one girl name that we both like and no boy names that we agree on. But they are also top-secret… so if anyone else uses them we can’t accuse them of theft! 
Yay Peanut, keep on growing, can’t wait to meet you!
Hello! Thanks for sharing
I loved reading your pregnancy update! I am glad to hear that things are all going pretty well, and I hope the rest of your 2nd trimester is as good.
I just wanted to add, that some other blokes decided that there was not much for the fathers-t0-be, and made a couple of DVD’s just for expectant dads. They are called ‘Being Dad’and i think they are available at big W. I have both though, if you would like me to send them!
Just wanted to wish you all the best!
Love
Rae
re: gluten: no idea!! I didn’t have to go on that diet - it was probably related to the test I didn’t do.
At the risk of adding to your list of advice:
Re: maternity bras - because I’m big I had to look hard for something nice in my size and discovered the Australian Breastfeeding Association. They have a massive range online and most are (dare I say it) sexy.
Re: maternity clothes - Kmart have a nice range of basic stuff.. I only found out towards the end of pregnancy and I would have liked to know earlier!
Re: Parenting classes - if you’re at RPA you can just ring the midwives section (they’ll put you through) and ask directly.
Congratulations again
Don’t laminate your ultrasound picture That is my advice.
Congratulations! This is so fantastic!
Thanks so much for sharing all of this… people swap engagement stories but rarely pregnancy stories! And it’s kind of similar don’t you think, all this excitement leading up to a big day!
So happy for you guys! Actually never been more excited for anyone except my sister! I think it’s because I think that you will both be amazing parents and love the idea that someone could grow up in your family.
Looking forward to many more posts on the topic.
Lovely news, Karen.
Thanks everyone! I will be sure to ask for help when I need it!
Great pic!! Peanut is cute! :D
Praying for you all!
xx
:D
I had a similar sort of morning sickness.. except I threw up! I’m suitably impressed that you coped OS.. that must have been tough.
It sounds like you’re doing marvelously otherwise!
Book recommendation on something a bit less technical and a bit more human: ‘Birth’ http://www.birthnet.com.au/
Praise be to God indeed! Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.
Congratulations, Beilharzen! Welcome to the slightly-bewildering world of pregnancy (and birth...and children...). God has blessed you greatly with this new life. We’ll be praying for Peanut’s growth and development, and for you guys as you prepare.
I’m sure you’re surrounded by baby veterans, but always happy to help with books/advice/recommendations/listening.
B&L;
Excellent job Karen! You SHOULD be pleased with yourself!
Have you discovered http://www.ravelry.com ? It is an excellent site with thousands of free patterns in its database, lots of support, tips, forums etc and of course - friends like me? Look me up when you get there - fionag77
PS Are you just wearing a bulky dress or are you sporting a bump under that dress?
oooh.... It’s done and it looks great on you! xxx
Well done on all that hard work! It looks great and will be very snuggly come winter!
Thanks for letting me know, Timo!
Hi there,
Thanks for pointing out the shortcoming on our website. I’ll pass it on to my colleagues and hopefully it will be rectified soon.
The documentary at Fashioning Now was by Holly Kaye-Smith; I’d be more than happy to put you in touch with her if you’d like.
Again, thanks for the comment, much appreciate it!
Kind regards,
Timo Rissanen
Thanks Mark! Much appreciated!
Blinks:
Via WhipUp. Easy: takes 5 min.
Jamie S Rich's advice on how to break into comics.
Via Mike Hyam. Parenting advice: how to raise your children in the Lord as a father.
Cheaper than a nursing home and they allow the elderly to stay in their own homes. Plus their children have peace of mind, knowing whether or not their parent has gotten out of bed, eaten, etc. But there are privacy concerns with such surveillance, and resistance from some of the elderly. Some love it though.
Via Luke Stevens. Father put photos of his baby son online 10 years ago and now finds out that the photo has spawned a Japanese meme.
Andy Schmidt's advice to artists and writers on how to break into comics.
Changing nightmares into dreams through therapy--particularly for PTSD patients.
Students sharing dorm rooms are increasingly bad at communicating with one another face-to-face and dealing with conflict. University administrators have spent more time trying to get them to negotiate and work things out. The parents are now more involved as well. Administrators changing procedures to get the students to own the process.
Via George. On empathy, men and women, the importance of empathy, empathy vs sympathy, and the effect the internet has on our relationships.
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Comments
Interesting.
One point (actually, probably several):
The Nephilim are not fallen angels. Genesis 6 makes a distinction between the godly line of Seth ("the sons of God") and the wicked (everyone else, represented in the marriage example as the “daughters of man”.) The Nephilim are their offspring; they sound like hero figures ("giants") but the text doesn’t make them sound anything other than human. There is no mention of angels or spirits in Genesis 6. And why would angels, fallen or otherwise, need to be preached to? All the demons that Jesus came into contact with seemed to know who he was and acknowledged his authority. In 1 Peter 3:18-22 (which I do not find obscure), the “spirits” sound like all the wicked who died during the flood, and the “prison” is Sheol (which may indeed by hell).
I’ve never heard anyone assert that Jesus spent three days in hell; he died on the Friday and rose on the Sunday, and that would make a bit over one day, if he did so. To split a hair. But why do you think the “descended into hell” part of many creeds (which I think is what you mean) “isn’t true”? Do explain this.
And a question:
Given what you’ve stated, what do you think the Apostles’ Creed means when it says “and He descended to the dead”?
The resurrection and justification are indeed a great and beautiful mystery (some things are too high for us), but I do consider that scripture is clearer on these other, subsidiary points than you have argued.
Upon reflection, and a little research, I think 1 Peter 3:18-22 might be talking about the Spirit of Christ preaching through Noah to the wicked at the time of the flood. (O dear I very nearly was a dispensationalist.) And the “descended to” phrase might be an outdated (though memorable) idiom for “dead”. “Descended to the dead” = sheol = normal place of departed human souls, therefore emphasising that Jesus was indeed dead. I just answered some of my own questions. Apologies, sister. But I’ll stand by my first point, about the Nephilim & co., and my last paragraph.
Thanks for this one Karen.
I think that we evangelicals have this extreme ‘need’ to understand everything. We must completely understand how God atones for our sins - we just can’t cope with the idea that “it’s a mystery”. But it is.
I think I’d be a little worried if I could understand all of God’s ways.
Full points for John Woodhouse “admitting” that this is just one more thing about God that we cannot comprehend completely.
daniel
Deb: see your blog for an answer to the hell question. I will have to keep thinking about the Nephilim/Noah thing. But I think that the line of interpretation you’re following begs a lot of questions. If the spirits in prison were the wicked from the time of Noah, why did Jesus go preach to them? Why them as opposed to anyone else in the whole of Old Testament history? And what did he preach?
If it’s the angels (which is my theory), Jesus was preaching the news of his victory in his death on the cross. It’s not to give them a second chance at redemption but to declare to him that he has won (and they have lost). The angel link seems to me to be highly plausible because of the link to 2 Peter where Noah and things imprisoned are also mentioned.
This, however, is just one theory out of many. We had a look at 1 Peter 3:18-22 last year in staff meeting and looked at the various options (including the Tony Payne option) and, after thinking about it for a long time, that was the view that I thought worked best with the material.
Hello Karen, you needn’t refer me to my own blog!
I assume the 2 Peter passage you refer to is 2 Peter 2:4? Because that verse seems to me to be, in context, part of a long list of things proving God’s steadfast application of justice, evidencing his holiness and his protection of his righteous ones. In my ESV, it’s only the first part of a single sentence that extends to verse 10. God locking up the fallen angels and his flooding of the world are treated as separate events, like Sodom/Gommorah and Lot. I don’t see a necessary connection between that and the 1 Peter 3 passage that we have been referring to.
That passage seems to refer to a spate of disobedience immediately before the flood, whereas the usual take on the “fallen angels” thing is that that happened long long before.
Okay, why them. Because they were a wholly wicked generation. See the arrogance of Lamech in Gen 4:23-25. And God’s sorrow in 6:5-6. The message would have been one of their disobedience and their need to repent and joyfully submit to God’s rule (gospel). They needed this message to be preached to them because there seem to be no prophets in during this period.
This would not have been necessary in the post-Mosaic era of the OT because the people had the revelation of the Law, to declare to them at least their disobedience. They also had, at times, the prophets. Previous to that they had the patriarchs and before that Noah (Genesis has only genealogies and the Tower of Babel between Noah and Abraham), and I think all these men are referred to as prophets in the New Testament.
Also, what is meant by “preach”, do you think? I can’t imagine what is usually denoted by this word as being applicable to angels. All encounters with angels throughout scripture tend to indicate that they know exactly what is going on. The evil spirits that responded to Jesus already recognised and submitted to his authority.
Perhaps I should say, this line of interpretation, including the take on the Nephilim (an automatically unhelpful word), is not one I came up with on my own (I shan’t flatter myself), but is the one taken and preached to me by a number of reliable, godly pastors from my home denomination. This is not to back myself up, but to prove at least I’m not heading up a garden path I paved myself.
I put in the reference to your blog in case any one else was reading and wanted to know why I hadn’t answered your question.
Will respond to your other points post-OT1-essay.
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